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View Poll Results: Is internet crime as serious as "real" world crime
Yes -any crime is as serious as each other 17 68.00%
No -Crime in real life is way more important 8 32.00%
Voters: 25. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 13-06-2004, 12:13 PM   #1
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Is internet crime, real crime?

After various discussions on the HL2 source hackers being arrested etc, ive read some comments in this and several other forums that come to the conclusion, that internet crime isnt as important as "real" crime. Though in my opinion it is as important (to a degree) but others have argued that its not as important as say break-ins because it dosnt directly affects us and its not so omportant because its less physical.

What do you guys rekon ?
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Old 13-06-2004, 12:21 PM   #2
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i think it is really, because so many people are vulnerable that use the internet due to not having a clue whats going on most of the time.
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Old 13-06-2004, 12:26 PM   #3
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tis stealing. its like download copyrighted films. its as illegal as copying a film from a rental place and flogging it on the market.
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Old 13-06-2004, 12:36 PM   #4
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aye, but could you put it on the scale of muggings, rapes, murder etc -i know its a less serious crime, but id prefer it if they put there hours into solving them sort of cases. i know its still crime but form what ive been reading theres been alot of hours into bringing these hacker guys down -and they only get community service!?
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Old 13-06-2004, 01:22 PM   #5
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Downloading MP3 from p2p or elsewhere = not a problem as far as Im concerned, common, people been copying library issues for years.

Grooming someone and assosiated = real world crime and should be punished as such
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Old 13-06-2004, 01:41 PM   #6
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Its all down to peoples views and how open they can see things.
Look it at from GameOn' point of view here.
were a company and we only trade on the internet.
say someone does something as simple as a "DoS" attack on us, it could bring our servers down and stop us trading.
HL2 code was taken and in respect was causing damage to a large company.

some other examples.
What if “Amazon” had a DoS attack
what if bank or card company got hacked and "your personal" details got taken.


Yes there is different levels of it but its still a crime and it has to be taken seriously.
I was talking just last night to someone about "quakenet", they had to ban an entire "ISP" company from there users connecting to Quakenet due to DoS attacks and hacks from users on the connection of this ISP.
At the time there the ISP wasn’t responding to Quakenets mail and there was nothing really in place for them to stop and trace theses people. (this was a number of years back)

By getting "internet crime units" (that are in most police stations now) in to the police stations now stopping this sort of action is starting becoming easier.
If its not treated as a real crime (which it is) then its going to make it harder someone breaking the law.
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Old 13-06-2004, 02:01 PM   #7
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need a half option bleecher - I dont think its that cut and dry to be either less or more serious becasue it depends on the situation.

Downloading a game you would never have any intention of buying is bad but not serious in any way.
Downloading a game you would have purchased is theft though as you have then stopped the company making some money.
I think the same way about films and music.

As for DDOS attacks, hacking for information theft - that is a very serious crime.
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Old 13-06-2004, 02:09 PM   #8
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next thing you know, metallica will be playing download festival!... hmmm

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Old 13-06-2004, 05:54 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devo
next thing you know, metallica will be playing download festival!... hmmm

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Old 13-06-2004, 06:57 PM   #10
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internet crime can (and does, quite often) affect businesses by DoS attacks, viruses, hacking (obtaining sensitive information which could be used to bribe/take a business out of business etc)

and form of internet crime affects somebody in a negative way which could end up very harmful to a person so yeah, it is as bad as real crime (oh the hours of stress people endure having to format their pc after a virus (yeah its their own stupid fault for clicking a link on irc but still))
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Old 13-06-2004, 11:45 PM   #11
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Interesting post, i have a few comments to make when i get some more time
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Old 14-06-2004, 11:51 AM   #12
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What a silly question, of course it is.

Just because you install a trojan with keylogger onto someones pc, get their bank details and make several transfers to your own bank, is no right to say it isnt the same as shoulder surfin someone at the ATM and nicking their card and doing it that way.

If anything, its cleverer, because you have a wall of supposed anonymity. Wether you download music, films, money, whatever, its still stealing however you phrase it.

Mp3's are a grey area.

One the one hand the defense states that if you own the music on some media that you purchased, say an album you can legally download that track on mp3.

However just because you own the album, would you go into HMV and demand the single for free?

However the large majority of people who download mp3's DO NOT own the originals.

People assume that just because they are sat at home on their computer they are immune from the law. That just isnt the case. If you steal,and if you get caught you are going to be punished.

Also doing something from a computer doesnt seem half as bad as stealing physical property from a shop. So the whole stealing thing becomes desensitised as a result, people think its "ok"

Im guilty of doing this as are 99% of the users of this board, but that doesnt make it right.

I think your poll questions are misleading.

I mean, when you commit crime on your computer is this some sort of virtual world where no one else knows about? Because the second option states, crimes in Real Life. By this do you mean physical crime?. What about telephone fraud, shoulder surfing, card skimming. Those arent physical crimes, the victim often isnt even involved directly.
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Last edited by Colio; 14-06-2004 at 11:55 AM.
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Old 14-06-2004, 12:12 PM   #13
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eh?

The dedinitions are internet crime ie hax0ring, downloading copyrighted materials etc, and the "real" world crime is stuff that isnt founded or done primarily on the net so phohne skimming dies fall under that catagory.

basicly the question boils down to, is stealing shite from a games programmer should have as much time devoted to it as a rape.

the catagorys arnt misleading because above it states that if its not done on the net then its a real world crime even telephone fraud and shoulder surfing as thy dont need the net for primary execution.
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Old 14-06-2004, 12:36 PM   #14
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Whats the difference between hacking someones computer to access files or breaking into their offices and stealing paper files?

Whats the more serious?

They are both as serious as each other. Its just with a break in, there is more likely to be incriminating evidence.
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Old 14-06-2004, 12:41 PM   #15
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i dunno which is more serious thats why i asked
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Old 14-06-2004, 01:10 PM   #16
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I think there are different levels of Internet crime in the same way that there are different levels of "real" crime.

I agree with Teddy.
I have no problem with downloading/leeching a game that I'm probably not going to buy anyway just to see what it is like. If I like it I will usually buy a genuine copy. I know that's what demos are for, but tbh demos are usually based on pre release code and are often quite different in several important aspects to the final game.

Downloading a game that you know you want and are giong to play lots is just as much stealing as walking into HMV and popping a CD into your pocket.

Denial of service attacks, hacking and defacing web sites and stealing data is clearly wrong whatever your views on the company that is being attacked.
This is damaging not only to the owners of the company but also to the employees.

MP3s are another thing entirely. IMO. I have quite a few CDs in my collection that I would not have if I hadn't listened to MP3s by the artists and liked them.
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Old 14-06-2004, 01:28 PM   #17
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Technically, they could be prosecuted for multiple things.

Firstly, Theft. They had the intention to permenantly deprive the other of their property.

Secondly, Digital Millenium Act, Copyrights etc - Not too clued up on that just yet.

Thirdly, Data Protection Act - Again, Copyrights, taking of sensitive information.

Fourthly, Criminal Damage. Although not permanant, the Police and Criminals Evidence Act states that Criminal Damage can be "damage" or "destroyed". Although the taking of the code is not "literally" damage, it does set them back, and therefore would be classed as damage.

Laws are handled differently, and it's really up to the officer/prosecutor how it is handled. Obviously is someone stole Half Life from a store, the manager might ask the officer to give them a slap on the wrist, and a kick up the arse.

But if you look at the above criminal acts that have been comitted, then it does get rather serious, and you can look at hefty time. Criminal Damage and theft together is 21 years max.

It depends on the nature of the crime, and the after affects.

Personally, I think the suspects arrested for the crime should be prosecuted, and do hefty time. Also, I'd enforce the digital millenium act, and stop them using a PC for the rest of their lives.

Thats my input

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Old 14-06-2004, 01:30 PM   #18
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Old 14-06-2004, 10:54 PM   #19
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Humm, this is a tough one.

I have a few views, and I will try to express them best I can.

When I was a student, I couldnt really afford the games I wanted. I Downloaded them, If it was a good game and It was worth my money id buy it, simply for the MP side of things.

Now generally, If I want a game I buy it, im working - I can afford it.

I have always downlaoded mp3's, and probably always will.

When tape recorders firsst came out there was an out-cry - Copyright theft etc etc. What do you hear of it nowdays?*

IMO Mp3s are the same, its no different from recording of the radio - Its just in the 'Modern Form' (Most early releases on MP3 are fomr the radio)

Lost earnings? No, If I couldn't Download them I wouldnt buy them either.

Thats as far as it goes with me, regarding 'Not Real' Internet Crime

The mid area is cracking software - patches, keygens etc etc. Legally (I think) it is your right to have a 30 day trial period with software. If you dont want it you can get a refund, regardless of reason.

Anything I have ever probably cracked was used on a short term basis - For a 'One Off' Job. Im not paying £xxx amount for 1 use - Thats daylight robbery IMO.

I bought ym Norton utilities because I use them enough to warrent me paying for it.

Now the area which is in no way not real is the data theft, deception and fraud.

E.g - Hl2 source code theft, Spoof Webpages to decieve users out of tangible objects (Ebay) or Cash (Paypal, Bank sites etc etc) and the use of Random CC Generators (yes they do exists, and do work, this elaves a not so 'Secure' small Ebusiness in the shit when an order goes through and gets sent on fake details)

I feel the sentances and consequences for this sort of thing are STILL too low. Im glad the HL2 source code thiefs got arrested. As would I feel for anyone who purposely decieved another Internet user, its just wrong.

Now, We can draw a simple conclusion from My opionions.

The First and Mid levels of Real-Crime for me dont hurt anyone, and certainly dont leave any 'Person' short of pocket.

The last does hurt people, it does take peoples hard earned cash and it will invariably land you in the crap if caught, and so it should be.

If downlaoding Mp3s, Movies, Apps , games and the alike was hurting 'Mr Im just
trying to get on in life' I dont think many people would.

Theres always been the same perception on this sort of thing, the Big Corporation is never hurts, If theye were they still wouldnt bee in business - They make all thier money form Business purchases and maintainance contracts - The business' can afford them, and will pay them.

Try run a company of pirated software, It wont happen.

*This excludes selling on for profits, that is a REAL crime, and should be intolorable. Especially in deception cases.
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Old 15-06-2004, 12:27 PM   #20
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Just as the are major and minor real life crimes the same is with the internet but they are still crimes.

Warez and stuff is down to the companies to sort out, end of the day its always been around and alsways will be. The police should only step in when its on a large scale and someone is distributing loads of copies.

But then there the larger crimes like Credit card fraud, the net is one of the largest sources of CC fraud, and will increase with the introduction of Chip and Pin unit at stores...

end of the day its still crimes, but joe public thinks less of them as they dont have anything major to lose by them..
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